Date: 28.05.23
Location: Ruigoord. Fiery Tongues Festival, Amsterdam.
Attendees: Marco Bakker (interviewee), Ana Collins (interviewer).
AC: I am speaking with Marco Bakker here at the home of Hans Plomp in the beautiful Ruigoord community, Amsterdam. Good afternoon Marco. To start with, please can you describe how you first met Ira Cohen and what your initial impressions were of him?
MB: Well for me it all started with Vali Myers. I met Vali Myers in Positano in Italy and through her I met a lot of other interesting people and the first one was Bobby Yarra. Ira was a friend of Bobby Yarra and that was how I met Ira.
I think the first time that I really connected with Ira was at the birthday of Simon Vinkenoog here at Ruigoord. Simon Vinkenoog was a friend of Ira and he was one of our greatest poets. I think he was celebrating his 70th birthday. Ira came to Amsterdam for his birthday at Ruigoord and that was where we met. At that time he had a Dutch girlfriend and she lived in Amsterdam. Ira came a lot in Amsterdam at that time. So I met Vali in 2000 so it was around then.
AC: What did you think of Ira when you first met him?
MB: I thought he was great, wonderful mind, his imagination.
AC: His vision!
MB: Yes, his vision. That was also the thing. He was a photographer as well. He knew how portraits and photographs work, compositions. He was always up for taking pictures when I asked him, “Shall we take some photos?” Ira would say, “Well, why not?!”
So I met him a lot and took a lot of pictures of him. He liked being photographed and he was quite a good model because he knew how it worked.
AC: Thatʼs interesting because sometimes photographers are rather less comfortable having the lens pointed at them.
MB: Yeah, yeah but he was very good. At least with me he was good. He trusted me and we worked well together.
AC: Did he influence you as a photographer?
MB: No, not really because I met him when I was already mature. There were other photographers who had more influence on my work because I met them when I was younger. When I met Ira I already had my own way of looking and my own way of making pictures.
AC: Ira was adaptable and could generally find his way in most cultural contexts. You mentioned yesterday that Ira visited you several times at your home in Edam, that he met some of the community there and was impressed by the sights.
MB: Yes, that was really funny. Edam is of course known for itʼs cheese and at that time there was an exhibition in the church which was on cheese. They made a little church of cheese. Ira was so impressed by that, the church of Cheese. He was comfortable with all situations. He took pictures all the time. Wherever he was. He took pictures of my wife and me. In any situation wherever he was, in what country he was, in what culture, he took pictures.
AB: For him that was part of seeing, observing and being.
MB: Yes and that was something that we shared. In that sense it was an inspiration for me, the way he saw and the way he took pictures. His approach.
AB: Ira had a fondness for certain themes and motifs which we see recurring in his work. The Bearded Iris – for example the picture that I saw taken by you of Ira with the foliage. How did that photo come about?
MB: That was in New York. As always he was up for taking pictures and he had a great imagination. He liked to try things and to play with things. With hats and everything. Anything that we could use as a prop. The photo of the leaves, you mean that picture?
AC: Yes, with the pot plant.
MB: Well, that was just in the neighborhood of his house. We went for a walk and it was like, well weʼll see what we come across. For Ira everything could be a subject for a picture. Also in the portraits that I took of him. He was a good model but I didnʼt see him as a model or subject. He was a friend and I wanted to take good portraits of him. Because well, to express his fantasy, his imagination. We could use anything for the picture. That was very liberating.
AC: Found objects…he had a very spontaneous style of creating.
MB: Yes, thatʼs what I meant, he knew how it worked and he also knew what would bring out a good picture when you use certain things because he knew, he understood the craft. In that way it was easy to work with him. I didnʼt have to convince him to do something, when I said, “Letʼs do that.” He would…and people who donʼt understand they say, “Yeah, but why should we do that?” With Ira it just flowed. For me a good portrait always come from both sides, from a reciprocity. Itʼs not that I say, “Go stand over there,” directing the person. With Ira he really responded and his energy and my energy together, the interaction between was great. Together we made some wonderful images.
AC: Did you spend time with Vali Myers and Ira together?
MB: No, because I met Vali in 2000, in Italy. The first time for just a couple of days. Then I stayed in touch with her when she went to New York, I called her…but I never saw Vali and Ira at the same time. They were very dear friends. Ira also took some great pictures of Vali.
AC: I personally resonate most with Iraʼs creative periods in Tangier and Kathmandu.
How do you think Iraʼs time in Europe and association with the artistic community in the Netherlands influenced his artistic sensibility?
MB: An influence on his work, Yes it definitely was, in his poems and photographs. Everywhere he came he used it so of course when he was in Morocco…everything influenced him. So of course Amsterdam influenced him as well. That was how he worked and how he was.
AC: Integrating and weaving all these aspects into his visions.
MB: That was the wonderful thing about his creative process I think.
AC: He was very eclectic.
MB: Yes, Exactly. Not only in the pictures that we did but also in his own work, in his poems.
AC: As a photographer Ira is most known, most recognized now for his Mylar chamber series but that was actually quite a brief period.
MB: It was a very short period, ja. It was lovely of course, there are some great pieces. Thatʼs also his fantasy, his wild imagination…he was thinking well, what will happen, if I put the pictures into the Mylar room? It was so amazing the results, the images that came out. Wonderful.
AC: Like looking through a butterfly wing, it was said.
MB: Yes, and he took Jimi Hendrix, Vali Myers, William Burroughs, very iconic but it was a very short period and most of the time he did quite different things.
AC: A lot of black and white photography for example. The Thunderbolt Pagoda film, I think that was produced around the same period as the Mylar chamber series.
MB: Yes, it was very much infused by the same aesthetic, the same feeling.
AC: When was the last time you saw Ira?
MB: I think maybe a year before his death, I think the last time was in New York. 2010 I think. He was still very much engaged until near the end, well, I could take his picture. For me until the very end it was always great being with Ira.
AC: Always a pleasure.
MB: Always a pleasure, being with Ira.